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Cross Party Group Details

Cross Party Group Title:

Construction

Group membership and office holders

Name of Group Chair:

Joyce Watson MS

Names of other Members of the Senedd:

Mike Hedges MS

Mark Isherwood MS

Delyth Jewell MS

Name of Secretary and Organisation:

CITB (Mark Bodger – CITB / Matt Kennedy – CITB)

Names of other external members and organisations represented:

David Kirby, CIOB (DK)

Malcom Davies, Welsh Government (MD)

Gareth Davies, Knox and Wells (GD)

Gareth Evans, UWTSD (GE)

Gareth Williams, CITB (GW)

Gordon Brown, TfW (GB)

Christopher Hare, Welsh Government (CH)

David Humphrey, Morgan Sindall (DH)

Ifan Glyn, FMB (IG)

Julia Stevens, CITB (JS)

Keith Jones, ICE (KJ)

Ken Pearson, Bluestone Builders (KP)

Mark Hennessey, ASD Build (MH)

Matt Kennedy, CITB (MK)

Owain Jones, TRJ (OJ)

Rob Davies, CITB (RD)

Zak Clark, CITB (ZC)

Andrew Eldred, ECA (AE)

Andrew Eldred, ECA (AE)

Leigh Hughes, Felicitas Consultancy (LH)

Malcolm Davies, LGHCCRA (MD)

Nigel Donohue, IAA (ND)

Rhian Edwards, Medr (RE)

Robert Stroud, EET (RS)

Other meetings of the Group since the last AGM

Date of Meeting:

22.04.24

Attendees:

Joyce Watson MS (JW) - Chair

Christopher Hare, Welsh Government (CH)

David Humphrey, Morgan Sindall (DH)

David Kirby, CIOB (DK)

Ed Evans, CECA Wales (EE)

Gareth Davies, Knox and Wells (GD)

Gareth Evans, UWTSD (GE)

Gareth Williams, CITB (GW)

Jeff Protheroe, Colegau Cymru (JP)

Jill Fairweather, Welsh Government (JF)

Keith Jones, ICE (KJ)

Malcolm Davies, Welsh Government (MD)

Mark Harris, HBF (MH1)

Mark Hennessey, ASD Build (MH2)

Mark Isherwood MS, (MI)

Matt Kennedy, CITB (MK)

Owain Jones, TRJ (OJ)

Rob Davies, CITB (RD)

Zak Clark, CITB (ZC)

 

Summary of the issues discussed:

 Meeting started at 9:53. JW welcomed everyone to the meeting and outlined that Jeremy Miles is now Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language.

JW outlined the agenda for the meeting with the first being existing priorities and challenges for the industry.

EE stated that there are large amounts of uncertainty in the economy at large with small amounts of volatility and that budgets seem to be worth less than in previous years.

EE highlighted the large budget constraints across the public sector and that there are things from the public sector approach to risk that could be implemented, however there are aspects, such as trying to transfer risk due to budgetary pressures, that are not healthy.

EE outlined the need for the public and private sector to work more collaboratively in addressing the risk issues.

EE stated that, in terms of infrastructure, there is potential for large opportunities arising around projects such as floating offshore wind and as an industry, construction should take advantage of those opportunities.

EE highlighted three key issues: visibility of work in the public sector, ability to gain work and procurement and availability of skilled people.

EE outlined the need to revisit some of the changes made to the Further Education sector to make better use of social value to incentivise employees to go into schools and support the curriculum and get young people into the industry.

JW thanked EE for presenting and moved to GE.

GE outlined a report published in 2016 and what that was built on was a requirement to build an ecosystem that brought industry and academia together to enable specialist skills to be furthered particularly within Wales.

GE highlighted that the report identified significant gaps in education and since its publication, some areas have been filled.

GE outlined that CITB had championed and funded many projects that have aided the landscape in Higher Education and Further Education.

GE highlighted the challenges behind getting new entrants into the education sector in the form of tutors, lecturers and how industry can help to fill the skills gaps.

GE outlined the need for a coordinated and collaborative approach to revisit some of the opportunities and challenges around centres of excellence and expertise.

GE stated that to increase specialist skills, there will need to be collaboration with CITB and other Welsh institutions in the sector to create a construction education programme in Wales.

JW thanked GE for the points made and asked RD1 to present.

RD1 agreed with GE around the challenges faced in Wales and in industry.

RD1 gave an overview of CITBs Labour Market Intelligence D   ata outlining the skills shortages, across all levels.

RD1 highlighted the successes and challenges around apprenticeships and other recruitment options into industry.

RD1 outlined the need to modernise the industry with new technology.

JW thanked RD1 and welcomed the final speaker IG.

IG gave context around what FMB is and its quarterly surveys with its members.

IG highlighted the impact of the cost of living crisis and inflation on workloads and lack of access to skilled labour and in terms of materials.

IG stated the three areas in which they will be focussing on: house building, skills and retrofit supply chains.

IG outlined that supply is currently not meeting demand and there is a decline in SME house building.

IG highlighted the lack of SME interest largely in post-industrial areas and rural areas due to an unpredictable and complex planning system and therefore carries too much risk.

IG outlined the Competition Market Authority’s market study on house building reflecting concerns and delivery of lack of diversity.

IG highlighted the need to ensure new entrants have opportunities to be assessed in ways that are accessible and relevant to their trade.

IG outlined that Wales has one of the oldest housing stocks in Europe and therefore there is a need to take some lessons from schemes such as the optimised retrofit program and implement them into the private sector.

IG stated that to underpin the program, there must be stable, strong and consistent policy and investment in Wales and suggested the Welsh Government not follow in the footsteps of the UK Government in terms of the retrofit agenda as the current system does not instil confidence in the contractors to invest in the sector.

IG highlighted the need to improve traditional homes through energy efficiency, cavity walls, trapped water et cetera.

JW thanked IG and the other speakers and encouraged a discussion and any questions.

KJ highlighted, from a civil engineering perspective, the largest problem is certainty of work and stated that that has an impact on academics.

KJ thanked the group for their help to the development of a civil engineering degree apprenticeship.

MD outlined that 11 local authorities and 34 registered social landlords have been issued £68 million to procure products and services.

MD provided a link to the Welsh Contractor Dashboard but highlighted that this can only be accessed by Welsh Government Staff.

MD highlighted the case studies that can be found on the Net Zero Carbin Retrofit Hub.

MD outlined the need for industry to understand digitisation and retrofitting.

AE agreed with EE around the procurement system and the business system, which are seen to be hostile to skills development.

AE agreed with RD1 on the CITB data around the lack of progression and stated that the issue in Wales is that the answer is not straightforward and that the data takes up to 18 months to collect which means it cannot be managed in real time.

AE agreed with JW and GE around collaboration between industry and the education sector.

AE suggested that the education sector should decide where the remaining apprenticeship funding is placed and that on a local and national level is industry and colleges talking to each other and getting a sense of where there is demand and mutual reciprocal arrangements.

EE outlined that there is an overarching theme of difficulties with the skills system and stated that it is a collective issue and that the biggest challenge for industry is the current workload and the time taken to train a worker to a competent level.

EE stated that the procurement system needs to be less bureaucratic, more proportionate and easier for SMEs in particular.

EE highlighted that there is something that can be done to improve the delivery of skills and work between businesses and the education sector.

JW thanked everyone for facilitating the discussion and welcomed NE.

NE gave a presentation on an overview of a research that CIOB have recently conducted into employability of those with criminal convictions.

NE stated that the report was put together to raise awareness around some of the barriers people might face when looking to find work in the sector.

NE highlighted that this is a topical issue for the CPG.

NE outlined that the Ministry of Justice does not publish much data around Wales on unspent criminal convictions or in general.

NE highlighted that there are proactive schemes to employ people with criminal convictions in the construction industry.

NE outlined the potential win-win situations for businesses and the opportunities for the individuals who may be struggling with employment.

NE stated that there was a strong appetite to work in the sector.

NE outlined the main reasons as to why an employer may not employ someone with a criminal conviction due to the potential legal risks, business reputation and safety of others onsite.

NE highlighted that lost of businesses would not consider someone at all, if they had a criminal conviction but stated that most could consider someone with an unspent conviction.

NE noted that the companies surveyed were larger in size and thus SMEs may not respond in the same way.

NE outlined the main barrier being stigma and negative perception across society and similarly business confidence and risk concerns.

NE highlights that in some cases businesses did not necessarily feel that they have the assurance that the probation service would provide the right support to hire people if they have just left prison or have recently had a community sentence.

NE stated that there is in some cases client requirements which can cause restrictions.

NE outlined that the prison system is complex and that each prison has its own system and have different opportunities.

NE highlighted that if there are opportunities available there may not be the capacity in the program due to the prison system being overcrowded.

NE outlined that for a business to work with prisons, due to the fragmented nature, they may have to build a relationship with each individual prison.

NE highlighted that there are practical barriers once people leave to start work such as accommodation and commute costs.

NE stated that following this report there were four recommendations to policy makers, qualification providers, industry and CIOB itself.

NE stated that Welsh Government has a responsibility to support prison education and employability. This can be done through consistency around the procurement processes and the removal of any barriers including stigma, equipping those with criminal convictions with meaningful skills that give employers confidence in the individuals.

NE highlighted the need for the skills and training opportunities in prisons do meet the needs of industry.

NE outlined that there has been increased collaboration between the prison service and industry in recent years.

NE directed people to the case studies found in the CIOB report and highlighted the opportunities that it can bring to individuals and businesses.

NE thanked the group and asked that any questions please be emailed to: NEvans@ciob.org.uk

JW thanked NE for presenting and stated that the challenge is that it is the larger contractors taking on this initiative.

JW noted that the key themes from the meeting were around taking forward how businesses and educators can collaborate to meet the needs of industry and highlighting the challenges around the legislation and the link between industry and educators.

JW outlined that she intends meet the presenters outside of this meeting to achieve a greater understanding of the topic before bringing some questions to the Senedd.

JW thanked the group for coming and asked if there was any other business – none was forthcoming. 

JW closed the meeting.

Meeting ended at 11:34

Date of Meeting:

07/08/24

Attendees:

Joyce Watson MS (JW) - Chair

Christopher Hare, Welsh Government (CH)

David Humphrey, Morgan Sindall (DH)

David Kirby, CIOB (DK)

Ed Evans, CECA Wales (EE)

Gareth Davies, Knox and Wells (GD)

Gareth Evans, UWTSD (GE)

Gareth Williams, CITB (GW)

Jeff Protheroe, Colegau Cymru (JP)

Jill Fairweather, Welsh Government (JF)

Keith Jones, ICE (KJ)

Malcolm Davies, Welsh Government (MD)

Mark Harris, HBF (MH1)

Mark Hennessey, ASD Build (MH2)

Mark Isherwood MS, (MI)

Matt Kennedy, CITB (MK)

Owain Jones, TRJ (OJ)

Rob Davies, CITB (RD)

Zak Clark, CITB (ZC)

 

Summary of the issues discussed:

Meeting started at 12:48. JW welcomed everyone to the meeting and outlined that the outcome of the UK General Election was important in many ways, given the flow of funding from Westminster and the various UK wide programmes aimed at aiding economic development.

JW highlighted that during a construction summit, held in North Wales, Jeremy Miles MS spoke clearly about the need for construction skills to be at the forefront of the approach to developing the Welsh economy.

DK outlined research CIOB has conducted around the SME market in Wales looking into the significant challenges in the market, with the research coming off the back of another piece of research published last year “Building Up Wales”.

DK highlighted the key issues around procurement and access to the procurement market for SMEs particularly around skills and training.

DK outlined that the main point made by those who attended a roundtable was that the implementation of the Public Procurement Act was flawed especially at a local authority level.

DK highlighted that the report will be aimed at policymakers and there will be an event taking place in October as some who will receive the report, may not have the time to read it thoroughly.

DK stated that the first thing to focus on would be technical compliance issues as those who had taken part in a survey often had to work with single stage contracts, unrealistic timelines and short tender periods meaning that some SMEs are unable to commit the resources to secure tender.

DK highlighted that participants also noted that they were reliant on third-party factors, the Planning Commission, various local authorities and from different departments that were often siloed.

DK outlined that one participant that took part in a round table stated that construction is the third or fourth most lucrative and industry in Wales, if not the UK, but some might be unwilling to enter the sector at SME level.

DK highlighted that there is a lack of commercial managers in Wales and that those often have to undertake other roles as well or are being headhunted by larger contractors meaning SMEs are missing out.

DK outlined that the Building Safety Act was identified as being confusing and sometimes challenging for SMEs particularly given some divergence between the Welsh and UK government and ensuring that staff are skilled enough to identify the challenges in England and in Wales.

DK stated that the key point was the disconnect between the policy and its implementation and the need to reform the tender process to make it more accessible to SME's.

MK asked DK if there was further analysis in terms of companies operating in urban and rural areas and how that came across in the roundtables.

DK outlined that there is less resource in more rural areas and so that put additional delays on projects and planning applications and also a brain drain from rural areas and there is a struggle to make sure there are projects in those areas to keep the industry afloat.

EE stated that there are so many policy aims about broadening the markets for SME's and yet the practices and the culture surrounding it, really stops them. KJ, MH2 and DK agreed.

DK stated that he would be undertaking some stakeholder engagement while the report is being published and agreed to be in contact with EE.

MI apologised for being late to attend and outlined that during meetings with housing associations, there was a key issue around the concerns about the skills pipelines.

DK agreed with MI and highlighted that SMEs in particular struggle to compete with the salaries and retention packages compared to larger organisations.

CH outlined that he has been working with CITB for the last 12 months to develop degree apprenticeships and launch new apprenticeship programs.

DK highlighted the need for industry, professional bodies, Welsh Government and local authorities to work collaboratively on these issues.

JW thanked DK for presenting and welcomed MD.

MD outlined that some of the work from optimised retrofit program is around monitoring energy and environmental data.

MD highlighted that there is currently a housing crisis and that a conversation has started around other versions of the Welsh carbon hub in the British Isles, Northern Scotland and England.

MD outlined that in terms of retrofit, it’s not just about making new things, but looking at what has worked in the past but may have received negative press.

MD highlighted that industry and government needs to become comfortable with what works and not being frightened by stories of where things may have gone wrong.

MD stated that the insurance sector has “suddenly woken up to all this” and some have voiced concerns about insuring batteries in buildings.

MI apologised as he was unable to attend the full meeting and outlined that not only is the challenge in progressing new homes to the planning system and access to good sites and the contractor market and labour skills shortage, including retrofit under material shortage, they're struggling with Welsh Government aspirations over decarbonisation and the ability to deliver.

MD offered to catch up with MI outside of this meeting on this topic.

JW outlined that insurance companies used to have an understanding within their teams at what stage projects were at and when they could start to ensure it.

MH stated that there is a larger issue around potential new building regulations in 2025 that could worsen the shortage.

MD highlighted the need to change the vocabulary when it comes to new policy/training programs as it can cause confusion within and between employers.

JW thanked MD for presenting.

Moving on to focus on the future arrangements for meetings of the CPG, MK outlined that after the summer recess, there would be two meetings per year, with a more topic-focussed discussion and deep dives into key issues.

MK highlighted the need to consult with members of this group over summer to make these meetings as meaningful as possible for all colleagues attending.

MK outlined that CITB has been secretariat for many years and it would be good to have input from other organisations who have expressed interest in that role.

In closing remarks, JW highlighted that the new UK government has already made some large statements around construction and there are opportunities for the construction industry.

JW offered to host something in the autumn term, at the earliest, on the opportunities surrounding the new UK government. MD offered to help JW with this.

JW thanked the group for coming and asked if there was any other business – none was forthcoming.

JW closed the meeting.

Meeting ended at 13:56.

 

Date of Meeting:

13/01/25

Attendees:

 Joyce Watson MS, (JW)

Alexander Still, Member Support Staff (AS)

Andrew Eldred, ECA (AE)

Caroline Kuchta, IAA (CK)

David Humphrey, Morgan Sindall (DH)

David Kirby, CIOB (DK)

Gareth Davies, Knox and Wells (GD)

Gareth W Evans, UWTSD (GE)

Heather Davidson, Medr (HD)

Ifan Glyn, FMB (IG)

Jeff Protheroe, Colegau Cymru (JP)

Jill Fairweather, ECWL - Tertiary Edu, Culture, Heritage & Sport – Cadw (JF)

Keith Jones, ICE (KJ)

Leigh Hughes, Felicitas Consultancy (LH)

Malcolm Davies, LGHCCRA (MD)

Mark Hennessey, ASD Build (MH)

Mark Isherwood MS (MI)

Matt Kennedy, CITB (MK)

Nigel Donohue, IAA (ND)

Rhian Edwards, Medr (RE)

Robert Stroud, EET (RS)

Zak Clark, CITB (ZC)

Owain Jones, TRJLTD (OJ)

Summary of the issues discussed:

Meeting started at 13:59. JW welcomed everyone to the meeting and apologised that there has been a delay in this meeting due to diary commitments.

JW outlined that the meeting took place in a new Senedd term and thus there is a need to elect a new chair and secretariat.

AS nominated JW as chair on behalf of Hefin David and MK seconded the nomination.

MK nominated CITB, in partnership with CIOB, as the secretariat.

JW highlighted that Medr is the new name for the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research and invited RE and HD to talk through what Medr will oversee.

RE thanked JW for the invitation and outlined that they are keen to have an active presence in the CPGs that have a connection to the broad portfolio of Medr.

RE outlined that Medr became operational in August 2024 as a result of the Education and Research Act 2022 and is an Arms-Length Body.

RE highlighted that Medr is both funder and regulator for the entire tertiary education system in Wales and covers, HE, FE, apprenticeships, adult education and Lifelong Learning, vocational education and training and sixth forms with a budget of £900 million.

RE outlined that the Tertiary Education Research Act had 11 crosscutting strategic duties that Medr must undertake, for example: providing lifelong learning, equality of opportunity, etc.

RE highlighted that the Welsh Government also issued Medr with a statement of priorities in February 2024 which covers five years and puts emphasis on certain areas for Medr to explore.

RE outlined that Medr submitted their first Strategic Plan to two ministers before the Christmas break and are awaiting responses from ministers and plan to publish it towards the end of May.

RE handed over to HD who talked through some priorities in relation to apprenticeships.

HD stated that, in construction, in the first ¾ of this academic year, Medr has helped 2165 apprenticeship starts which is an increase of 90 starts from the same time last year.

HD outlined that the current apprenticeship programs levels 2-5 are delivered by 10 lead contractor learning providers across Wales, which are appointed through a public procurement exercise with the current contracts due to end in July 2027.

HD highlighted that Medr are working with CITB to include a new design apprenticeship pathway and are considering what the future should look like for the apprenticeship provision in Wales post 2027.

HD outlined that the engagement process would be starting shortly for this, and it would be beneficial to engage with those present, directly or in larger groups to discuss the challenges and barriers and the needs for the future apprenticeship program.

HD highlighted that Medr are holding a workshop on 30 January to consider the impact of the removal of the level 2 construction qualification that will bring together Qualifications Wales, learning providers, Regional Skills Partnerships and members of industry.

HD welcomed anyone that would want to join that workshop to start thinking about possible solutions and how we can fill that gap to support learners.

JW thanked HE and RE for presenting and asked where Medr sees the media’s role in helping to retain apprentices and some of the “big picture” policies.

RE outlined that Medr are looking at how an individual can come into the system and access the system at various points in their life – and looking at other opportunities outside of apprenticeships, such as shorter, sharper skills interventions for those who an apprenticeship may not be suitable for.

DK highlighted that CIOB have undertaken a new piece of research around the barriers to SMEs and is happy to share with RE.

LH highlighted that there is a nervousness and a lack of tutors or teachers to meet current provision with the need to not just focus on new entrants but also to focus on the teaching skills.

LH outlined that due to the ever-changing fiscal environment, there is no current provision in Wales for areas which industry will move to over the next 20-30 years such as on and offshore wind.

RE outlined that there is no easy answer to LH’s first point but recognised that there is pressure as there is increasing numbers of individuals coming into the system.

RE highlighted that Medr has a precedent in pipeline demand in terms of PLA but acknowledges that there needs to be thinking around an agile way in terms of funding to ensure that Medr can support development and growth of provision that isn’t necessarily volume driven.

JF asked whether there is likely to be funding available for train the trainer program specifically around the level 3 award in energy efficiency measures for older and traditional buildings.

HD offered to pick this up externally with JF and RE and both accepted.

MK asked to what extent is Medr looking across the border to England with Skills England to see the parallels and whether there is an element of cross learning and sharing best practice.

MK also asked if there as any view around alternative pathways and how they might work/interact with Medr.

RE highlighted that Medr are watching Skills England and the consultation on Industrial Strategy with great interest and what they intend to do in terms of levy reforms.

RE stated that government officials within Welsh Government are trying to work through those in terms of how the government will respond to policies.

RE outlined that in terms of alternate pathways, Medr would need to understand the barriers to those and where they sit within the system.

HD added to RE’s point around Medr being keen around ensuring alternate pathways sit within the development of the new program going forward.

MD asked how organisations would build on their relationships in order to get industry accredited and certified meaning individuals can then take part in public sector funding programs.

RE outlined that there is not an easy answer but there is need for a broader conversation on that as accreditation may not come under Medr’s remit of skills enhancement.

MD offered to share a paper that would outline how to address that, RE accepted.

LH outlined that the birthrate in Wales is decreasing and so is the size of the workforce and thus transitional skills are an important part of the future of industry, alongside flexible micro credentials.

LH highlighted that pre credentials are seen as a positive step forward within industry but micro credentials are seen as a challenge – and the need to look into how to develop and deliver flexible micro credentials.

JW asked about the messaging around green jobs and skills as, from her observation, there is little understanding around it.

RE outlined that Medr will work with their providers and government to understand how those providers are delivering those messages to their communities.

HD highlighted that Medr is developing a framework for renewable energy looking at bringing energy apprenticeships into renewable energy.

HD outlined that the focus should be on green skills as opposed to green jobs and that its about getting those messages across about how it will benefit industry.

GE highlighted that there are concerns that while industry will continue to modernise, education will be left behind and that there is a need for Medr to ensure collaboration between HE and FE.

JF asked if any work had been done around alternative pathways and the provision of NVQs.

RE highlighted that there is no current work stream that is underway and offered to have an external conversation with JW.

JW moved the meeting to the retrofit workforce skills presented by the Installation Assurance Authority (IAA).

ND stated that the IAA is focussed on making sure industry “gets what it needs, not what it is perceived to need”.

ND outlined that the IAA issued around 7500 Homebuilders Skills Cards linked to CITB construction skills.

ND highlighted the launch of the National Energy Efficiency Centre to develop and share training standards with an emphasis on apprenticeships, upskilling, and sustained funding for SMEs.

ND outlined the importance of making compliance affordable as high costs deter SMEs and individual homeowners from engaging in retrofit projects.

ND noted the need to prepare for growing demand in retrofit as part of the decarbonisation agenda, requiring both skills pathways and financial incentives.

ND stated that giving SMEs access to public procurement, along with sustained funding that transcends government, could be ways in which to get a “fair deal for SMEs”.

ND outlined that AI 360 is aimed at generating interest and an interactive experience to pull knowledge and information as part of the learning experience.

ND highlighted a piece of research commissioned by IAA on career pathways aimed at new entrants and career returners, which should be published in March.

ND outlined that the research focusses on how to integrate retrofit techniques into three key routes: technical route, technical management route and business route, as to not limit career routes.

JW thanked ND for presenting and opened up the room for questions.

MD suggested Medr should work closely with IAA to address the supply chain of products and get those products into the workforce awareness programme.

ND outlined that the IAA has invested around £700,000 to set up the facility with a 10-year lease and that industry has been willing to engage through active sponsorships which are providing equipment and materials.

ND highlighted that there is a challenge to get colleges to engage as it can be seen as a financial risk.

JF asked whether IAA is teaching learners about sustainable techniques and if they are covered by a guarantee.

ND outlined that the IAA are approved for a 25-year guarantee and offered to have an external discussion with JF.

JW thanked those for presenting and asked if there was any other business – none was forthcoming. 

JW closed the meeting.

Meeting ended at 15:35.

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Annual Financial Statement

Cross Party Group Title:

Construction

Date:

04/03/25

Name of Chair:

Joyce Watson MS

Name of Secretary and Organisation:

CITB

Title	Description	Amount
Group’s Expenses	None	£0.00
Costs of all goods	No goods bought	£0.00
Benefits received by the group or individuals members from external bodies	No benefits received.	£0.00
Any financial support or other support.	No financial support was received.	£0.00
Total		£0.00

Services provided to the Group, such as hospitality.

All hospitality paid for [include the name of the group/organisation].

Date	Name and description of provider	Costs
N/A	N/A	£0.00
Total		£0.00